| Researching Your Ancestor's Locality - Chat Transcript | |
With Special Guest, Michelle Chubenko
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| <NAHostMichelle> | Probate records... you can learn lots of great info with these records! |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Probate records are those that are created by the estate of a decedent. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Does everyone understand Testate versus In Testate ??? |
| <Jilly> | no |
| <swannurse> | Are they with or without wills or both? |
| <Kate> | yep. left a will vs didn't |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Testate = will |
| <NAHostMichelle> | In testate = no will |
| <Jilly> | kate ur right on board |
| <Jilly> | lol |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Which type of records do you think I like better? |
| <swannurse> | testate |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Intestate |
| <Kate> | Intestate? |
| <NAHostMichelle> | For those who said or thought "In Testate", you're correct! |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Anyone care to guess why? |
| <Jilly> | information |
| <swannurse> | wouldn't a will be better? |
| <Jilly> | family names and relations. |
| <Kate> | More information had to be provided to the court to prove family ties |
| <Jilly> | location of property |
| <Jilly> | type of property |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Swannurse, as much as I love finding a will recorded for someone I'm researching. I LOVE when the estate is an Administration. Bottom line... lots more info to be found/recorded. |
| <swannurse> | never thought of it that way> |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Administrations also provides two documents that a normal probate (will) process does not... |
| <Jilly> | what do u mean by administrations |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Administrations = In Testate |
| <Jilly> | k |
| <NAHostMichelle> | For an estate that has a will, the Executor is named in that document. But, without a will, the court must appoint and Administrator/trix to handle the affairs of said estate. Hence... Adminstrations. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Guesses anyone?? |
| <swannurse> | Known family member? |
| <KimberlyHOST> | inventory |
| <NAHostMichelle> | That's one! |
| <Kate> | All the possible heirs and addresses |
| <KimberlyHOST> | I'll let the others guess the other one <grin> |
| <swannurse> | debts? |
| <Jilly> | ahh.........go on kim |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Kate, in many cases, the Application for Probate and Application for Administration are similar docs |
| <NAHostMichelle> | which have the heirs at law and residences listed. |
| <Kate> | Aha! Good to know! |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Keep in mind though, these 2 Applications became common only in the late 19th C |
| <NAHostMichelle> | No one wants to give it a shot? |
| <azurelee> | application for admin |
| <NAHostMichelle> | The two best pieces or documents found in an Admnistration or In Testate estate are the Inventory and the Accounting. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | The Inventory is a fantastic *picture* of the actual personal property that the person owned at the time of death. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | This listing will give you everything from bed sheets, to combs, to spoons to corn in the barn! |
| <azurelee> | cool |
| <Jilly> | have one of those...lol |
| <Jilly> | was amazed when i first read it |
| <michaelneill> | You'll even occasionally see the chamberpot listed ;-) |
| <swannurse> | me, had 2 chamber pots but no forks |
| <Jilly> | wouldn't be surprised |
| <DonP> | Isn't there a list of Assets when there is a will also, to determine taxes, and legal fees based on total assets? |
| <zerosum> | Is there any incentive to be In Testate....They will pay more tax? |
| <NAHostMichelle> | And, the Accounting can be a gold mine of info as well. It lists the financial activity of the Adminstrator/trix for the estate. |
| <HW> | One list I saw had a 20 cent bill for soap flakes in it. |
| <MicheleW> | So when my mom dies without a will, I will have to file for Administration and an inventory of everything in the house and all moneys had and who and how does this get recorded and owed will need to be accounted for? |
| <Kate> | The Decree of Distribution is apt to give more of the relationships involved than anything else isn't it? |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Don, no, a list of assets is not necessary when there is a will. The estate is divided based on the instructions contained in the will. |
| <azurelee> | now they have a thing called living trust. |
| <swannurse> | so basic, with will no accounting? |
| <zerosum> | Is there any way to escape the estate tax other than gift tax? |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Some wills will list personal possessions |
| <swannurse> | without will all accounted for? |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Usually only important ones - and not chamberpots ;-) |
| <michaelneill> | and some cases with wills will have inventories of real and personal estate---it just varies from state to state and over time... |
| <KimberlyHOST> | And usually only if the testator wished to leave them to someone specific |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Make sure you review the Inventories as well as the Accounting. Especially, to whom were payments made, note locations if listed! |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Administrators could have received reimbursement for travel expenses relating to the disbursement of an estate. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | I recently used the accounting of an estate to determine a place of burial! How? In simple terms... I researched which church the person who was paid to open the grave. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Because the sexton's book doesn't exist for the timeframe of the death, we had to use other records to get to the answer. |
| <azurelee> | never thought of doing that |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Also, understand who holds the records that you're looking for... New Jersey - Surrogate's Court; Florida - Clerk of the Court; Pennsylvania - Register of Wills |
| <azurelee> | what about Michigan? |
| <NAHostMichelle> | If you dealing with many different time frames of research, here's a book that is helpful... |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Shammas, Carole. Inheritance in America: From Colonial Times to the Present. New Brunswick, New Jersey: Rutgers University Press, 1987. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Also, since I like Adminstrations, I found this book to be interesting... |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Smith, Kenneth L. Estate Inventories: How to Use Them. Morgantown, Pennsylvania: Masthof Press, 2000. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Questions? |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Another interesting item related to Probate records are Guardian Accounts |
| <Guest2095> | What about the state of Kentucky? |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Sometimes you can find connections by looking at who was appointed as guardian for minor children |
| <swannurse> | With a will, is there a way to get an address (area) from the receiver |
| <NAHostMichelle> | swannurse, what time period? |
| <swannurse> | 1919 |
| <michaelneill> | For Kentucky, probably County Court Clerk http://www.kygenweb.net/contact/kyclerks.html has addresses |
| <Guest2095> | Thanks |
| <NAHostMichelle> | You should check the Application for Probate for residence info |
| <swannurse> | 1902 MI |
| <michaelneill> | Remember though that guardians records might be filed separately from other probate or estate records..depends upon time/place. |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Copies of probate records in Kentucky can also be found at the Department of Libraries and Archives and the Kentucky Historical Society |
| <swannurse> | ok, thanks |
| <Guest2095> | So how do you find out if there are any? |
| <KimberlyHOST> | The FHL (Family History Library) has also microfilmed many probate records |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Their online catalog is a great place to start to see what type of records are available. |
| <KimberlyHOST> | You can find out if they have filmed records for your locality by using Place Search in the Family History Library Catalog |
| <michaelneill> | Just remember that sometimes LDS doesn't film "everything," but they are a good starting point. |
| <KimberlyHOST> | One of the best ways to learn what is available in your locality is to check with researchers experienced in the area |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Okay, our next subtopic is Court Records... for those of you who think you might have a black sheep or two in the tree, here's you chance to check them out. |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Check with the local GenWeb site or try one of the RootsWeb mailing lists |
| <michaelneill> | I often post to the mailing list for that county and sometimes a "local" will have some advice. |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Or a local genealogical/historical society |
| <azurelee> | i have two black sheep in michigan. joel king and his son leander. 1860 census mentions they were in jackson st. prison |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Two basic types of court records... Criminal & Civil |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Also, different jurisdictions as well... Local versus state; as well as Federal |
| <michaelneill> | Besides local records---azurelee--you might want to try the MI state archives...I've used state archives for one of my prisoners. |
| <azurelee> | i had to petition the courts for my adoption records. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Many people make jokes about our society being quick to sue, but the court records of our ancestors aren't much different. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | There are cases of failure to pay on a promissory note, stolen property (horses, hogs, etc), slander, public drunkeness (sp?) |
| <KimberlyHOST> | children born out of wedlock too |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Were you successful in obtaining your adoption records azurelee? |
| <azurelee> | dont know yet. i had to fill out a form and send it to san diego. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | These records can be a gold mine of info providing little known details of the lives of our ancestors. |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Good luck with it azurelee! |
| <azurelee> | judge will decide if i have cause. i said medical, which is a very good reason. |
| <azurelee> | i really just want to find out my real name |
| <KimberlyHOST> | We can all understand that need! |
| <KimberlyHOST> | We're all in this because we want to know who we are and where we came from |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Also, make sure you understand legal terms and ages. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | A great resources for legal terms is... Black, Henry Campbell. Black^`2019s Law Dictionary: Definitions of the Terms and Phrases of American and English Jurisprudence, Ancient and Modern. St. Paul: West Publishing, 1991. |
| <michaelneill> | sometimes you can get copies of Black's Law on Ebay for a reasonable amount--FYI--that's where I got mine. |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Good tip! |
| <michaelneill> | shipping nearly killed me, but the price was reasonable (it's heavy...) ;-) |
| <KimberlyHOST> | LOL! |
| <azurelee> | who do you write to for criminal records in Michigan? |
| <michaelneill> | also if your local library ever has a "sale" check for copies of old state statutes---I got an entire set of IL state statutes from 1980 for $1.50 |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Okay, next question... Up to what age can a male be referred to as an Infant? |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Don't be shy!! |
| <DonP> | 12 |
| <azurelee> | I'll guess, 8 |
| <michaelneill> | (hint...he could probably heft 75 pound bales of hay...) |
| <swannurse> | 5 |
| <NAHostMichelle> | LOL |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Okay, we have 12, 8 and 5.... |
| <KimberlyHOST> | azurelee, it depends upon whether it was a misdemeanor or a felony, and the jurisdiction of the court in which the conviction occurred. |
| <azurelee> | it was for larcency |
| <KimberlyHOST> | How long in prison? Do you know? |
| <azurelee> | ok |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Do you know where in prison? |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Actually, he would be 14 and under. |
| <azurelee> | not very long leander died at andersonville |
| <azurelee> | i guess i could write prison. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | So, he probably was moving those bales of hay even though he would have been considered an Infant son in a will. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | And for us girls... we would have been 12 and under. |
| <azurelee> | wow |
| <michaelneill> | azurelee--I would try the county court offices first |
| <azurelee> | ok, thx |
| <NAHostMichelle> | The Szucs and Luebking book "The Source.." has an excellent table on page 209 on "Ages of Legal Actions." They also cite other sources to consult for particular details regarding period and jurisdiction. |
| <MicheleW> | Why was it 14? A military or voting or land ownership reason? What? |
| <MicheleW> | OH good |
| <MicheleW> | thanks |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Generally, "of age" in a legal context (e.g., when a boy or girl could dismiss his/her guardian and receive the inheritance) was 21--and, again depending on area and time period, one had to be 21 to sell land or make a valid will disposing of land (18 if only disposing of personal property). |
| <KimberlyHOST> | A good book on court records - The Sourcebook of County Court Records, 4th Edition (1998), edited by Michael L. Sankey, Carl R. Ernst, and Jimmy Flowers |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Szucs, Loretto Dennis and Sandra Hargreaves Luebking. The Source: A Guidebook of American Genealogy. Salt Lake City, UT: Ancestry Publishing, 1997. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Any other questions on Court Records? Thanks to Kim and Michael for helping out!! |
| <michaelneill> | no problem....court records are excellent...and people always think your ancestors had to be "rich" to appear...not so....this has been interesting... |
| <KimberlyHOST> | I've been spending the last month reading early NC court minutes and finding all sorts of interesting things |
| <Guest2095> | Are they on line? |
| <KimberlyHOST> | No |
| <azurelee> | looks like I'll have to take a closer look at the source book. |
| <michaelneill> | my wife's ancestor was brought up on charges of adultery and the girfriend on charges of fornication.... |
| <KimberlyHOST> | I ordered the films through my local FHC |
| <michaelneill> | in the 1870s...in Illinois |
| <azurelee> | I'll have to go to my local FHC when someone is there who knows what they are doing. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Mine weren't that colorful... failure to pay on a promissory note, taxes, etc. |
| <KimberlyHOST> | azurelee - the volunteers at the Family History Centers are nice, but not always experienced. Just remember they are volunteers trying to help! |
| <michaelneill> | Most of mine aren't either....although I did have one who was divorced twice from the same man...(in the mid 1800s) |
| <swannurse> | mine a horse thief |
| <NAHostMichelle> | That's an interesting twist! |
| <azurelee> | oh yes i know, it was an elderly gentlemen, real nice told me which day was the best to come to the center. |
| <KimberlyHOST> | You can learn a lot about how to use a Family History Center and its resources online |
| <KimberlyHOST> | azurelee - that was my next suggestion |
| <michaelneill> | some days local "experts" on certain things will be there...and on the LDS site be certain to read the research guides for your state |
| <KimberlyHOST> | You can always ask the volunteer and they'll be happy to tell you when their "expert" volunteers will be there |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Shall we move onto the next topic? Church records |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Research Guides online at the FamilySearch site |
| <NAHostMichelle> | You should learn the history of the religion(s) of your family. Understand what records were created for congregations and determine where the records are held today. |
| <azurelee> | thx |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Tips on using the Family History Library and your Local Family History Center |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Name two religions that practice adult baptisms. |
| <MicheleW> | Catholic |
| <swannurse> | Protestant |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Transcript of a past chat with David Rencher, director of the Family History Library |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Ahh, I snuck trick question in here for you, didn't I? |
| <michaelneill> | Baptist.... |
| <MicheleW> | And all Catholic records of sacraments are also sent to the church of Baptism |
| <swannurse> | sure did all will baptise adults |
| <NAHostMichelle> | While the Catholic and Protestant faiths accept those in adulthood into their congregations, there are two religions that don't baptise until the person is an adult.... |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Baptist and Methodist |
| <MicheleW> | We just had 7 adults Baptised at Easter vigil services |
| <MicheleW> | All other sacraments they receive- no matter where in the world they receive them, that record also will be sent to our church |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Mennonites practice adult baptism |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Kim, your home state is showing. :-) |
| <MicheleW> | Oh now that is a different question- Don't baptze Until adult- ok IC |
| <MicheleW> | but the point about catholic records still holds when looking for records of a person by church |
| <KimberlyHOST> | LOL Michelle :) |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Yes, I'm from Pennsylvania for those of you who don't know |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Pittsburgh, more specifically, so I hope to see some of you at the NGS conference! |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Depending on the faith, records created are baptisms (Baptist & Methodist-adult), marriages, burials, communicants, and confirmations. |
| <azurelee> | lot of my relatives in michigan use to belong to the congregational church |
| <NAHostMichelle> | A book that was recommended to me... Carroll, Bret E. and Mark C. Carnes. The Routledge Historical Atlas of Religion in America. New York: Routledge, 2001. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Another resource... Humling, Virginia. U.S. Catholic Sources: A Diocesan Research Guide. Salt Lake City, UT: Ancestry Publishing, 1998. |
| <michaelneill> | I may be wrong, but I though Methodists baptized infants.. |
| <swannurse> | they did, now they are dedicated |
| <NAHostMichelle> | hang on... let me ck my written notes |
| <swannurse> | all my children were baptized but grandchildren have been dedicated. |
| <michaelneill> | I'm not familiar with their current practices...but seemed to think that there at least was a time when then did it. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Hmmm, I have adult written in my notes along with probationers lists |
| <NAHostMichelle> | I'll make a note that 20thC included infant baptisms. |
| <michaelneill> | I did a search for "infant baptism" here and there were some references...I found online transcriptions of Meth. churches' infant baptismal registers. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | This is an excellent reason why we should research the history of our ancestor's religions! |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Here's an interesting article on the history of infant baptism/dedication in the Methodist church |
| <michaelneill> | However, there might have been some frontier Methodists who didn't practice it. |
| <michaelneill> | The Church of Christ (for a time called the Campbellites, after Alexander Campbell) does not practice infant baptism. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Kim, a most interesting article. Will have to read that more later. |
| <NAHostMichelle> | Any questions on Church records? |
| <KimberlyHOST> | But since you are the ones who stuck around this long, you have some say in the matter as well |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Assuming Michelle is up for it |
| <NAHostMichelle> | We have four subtopics left to discuss next week |
| <azurelee> | how do i get last weeks topics |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Here are the remaining topics 10. Cemetery Records 11. Periodicals, Newspapers and Manuscript Collections 12. Archives, Libraries and Societies 13. Special Focus or Topical categories (Immigration/Naturalization, African-American, Native American, etc) |
| <KimberlyHOST> | Last week's transcript covers topics 1-6: 1. History & Geography (State and Local) 2. Vital Records 3. Census Records (Federal, State and local) 4. Land Records 5. Tax Records 6. Map, Atlases & Gazetteers |
* This chat transcript was edited to remove all the "chit-chat" to make it more readable and helpful for people looking for the information that they missed.
Part Three of this Chat to take place on Monday April 28 at 9:30PM
in the
