| Social Security Sleuthing - Chat Transcript | |
|
Sponsored by the National Genealogical Society Learning Center
Transcript of Chat - 3 April, 2002
Page 2
| <Nadine_H> | For current employees, SSA maintains an employment history, one that we can request for verification. Do they keep this history for any length of time? |
| <PamPorter> | I'm not aware that anyone has successfully obtained one of these for genealogical purposes. Does anyone else know? |
| <Kate> | I have writers cramp! You said Claim Files are not retained long. About how long??? 5 years? 10? |
| <Guest1724> | how do you get a NUMIDENT computer print out and what is it? |
| <PamPorter> | No need for writer's cramp. Our wonderful host, Kimberly, posts transcripts of these sessions at some point afterward. |
| <PamPorter> | I have been told that claim files are usually destroyed within a couple years, but it never hurts to ask for one. |
| <NGSJohn> | there is a lot of very useful information in this transcript, thanks Pam |
| <genealogyADM> | I know that you can request employment histories for genealogical purposes, but you have to pay a fee since the purpose doesn't directly relate to Social Security |
| <genealogyADM> | Not sure how far back in time those records go, however |
| <PamPorter> | A Numident printout is the computer abstract of a person's SS-5 Application for SS number. The handout for this lecture has info about obtaining these. |
| <csrssw> | Where are the transcripts posted? |
| <Nadine_H> | does that employment history list employers? locations? dates? |
| <genealogyADM> | NGS Chat Transcripts are posted here |
| <PamPorter> | Nadine, I'd assume that employment history would list employers, dates, and locations. Remember, these records are created for the use of the SSA, not us genealogists. |
| <nicespice> | If you write to an employer can you get any information on the employee?? |
| <Nadine_H> | understand |
| <PamPorter> | But aren't we lucky to be able to use such things. |
| <NGSJohn> | Pam, in terms of tracking down information on the employer, what is the best method? |
| <Sagehost> | When did farmers start signing up for SS? |
| <PamPorter> | You may be able to get information from an employer, but a lot depends on privacy issues and compliance with various laws. |
| <nicespice> | How can you find out who the employer was?? |
| <PamPorter> | John and everyone, early applications for SS numbers had the employer listed. Other than that, try city directories at the time and place where he/she got a SS number. |
| <PamPorter> | That may list an occupation and/or an employer. |
| <PamPorter> | I'm bad with numbers, so can't give you dates when each phase of SS changed, when farmers became eligible, etc. Check out the SSA web site at www.ssa.gov and do a site search for specifics. |
| <AudieSue> | My father signed up for ss in California. Are all ss applications so small? |
| <nicespice> | I have looked on SSDI for my grandfather but he is not listed there so how can I find his ss #?? |
| <PamPorter> | AudieSue, you may recall that when we signed up for Social Security cards, the form is very simple, with very few facts. |
| <PamPorter> | This is not the application for Social Security benefits, but just for the SS number. |
| <AudieSue> | Darn, I need more facts.....oh well! |
| <NGSJohn> | Just as a side, the delayed birth records used for SS in Pennsylvania were filed with the Orphans Court |
| <PamPorter> | John raises a good point. Many older folks filed for delayed birth certificates if registration was not required when they were born. You will find these in various places, depending upon the state of birth. |
| <Jerry> | Self-employed farmers became eligible for Social Security in 1955. |
| <PamPorter> | Thank you, Jerry, for that fact about farmers! |
| <NGSJohn> | In the case of Pennsylvania civil registration came about in 1906 so these delayed records take you back earelier |
| <PamPorter> | nicespice, you may want to read the transcript of this lecture when it's posted. There were several suggestions for finding a SS number for a person in the beginning of the lecture. |
| <nicespice> | Ok thank you |
| <MichelleNJ> | Pam, can you repost the URL for the lecture outline? |
| <scm> | there was a period in time when applying for SS was optional, yes? |
| <Guest1724> | a point you should know,some people that filed for a delayed birtc may have done so in another state than where they were born . My father did this |
| <PamPorter> | Delayed birth registrations also have great info, because they had to somehow prove their birth, whether with a note from Mom, baptismal record, midwife's statement, or whatever. |
| <PamPorter> | Go here for the lecture handout. |
| <MichelleNJ> | Thank you! |
| <Guest1724> | in Texas that can be done by anyone that has known that person all of there life..friend ,uncle etc |
| <PamPorter> | Applying for Social Security is probably still optional, but since most folks pay into the system, they choose to get something back out. |
| <Sharon> | Social Security not optional for an employer |
| <Nadine_H> | is there any possibility of correcting some of the data entry errors? |
| <NGSJohn> | interesting question, has the SS Administration kept any records on employers? |
| <PamPorter> | Payment of Social Security taxes is not optional, to my knowledge, except in rare cases. Signing up for benefits may well be optional. |
| <Sagehost> | Nadine, you can correct your own errors but not those of someone else |
| <Nadine_H> | Sagehost, please explain. |
| <PamPorter> | I'm sure the SS Admin has records of employers, since every employer pays the same amount of SS tax on each employee as the employee himself does. Whether they are available to the public, I don't know. |
| <Sagehost> | You can correct your own files |
| <PamPorter> | If you go to Ancestry's SSDI web site and scroll down below the query form, you'll find info about correcting errors. |
| <NGSJohn> | It would be interesting to find out what could be found if anything on companies filing information |
| <PT> | My Husband opted out of SS with his employer and went to a 457 plan, but I do not know if this is still available. |
| <PamPorter> | Basically, take proof of the error to your local SS office and work with them. |
| <Nadine_H> | Do you mean the information that I submit on myself, as in the SS-5? |
| <PamPorter> | And yes, we should certainly keep an eye on our own SS accounts and reported earnings and make corrections to them when they are in error. |
| <Sagehost> | Yes, Nadine |
| <PamPorter> | If there are errors in the SSDI, try to get them corrected at the local SS office, being sure to take proof of the error. I have had people tell me that someone is in the SSDI who is very much alive. |
| <Nadine_H> | Thanx, Sagehost |
| <PamPorter> | If you can't find someone in the SSDI, be sure to try searching just by last name and perhaps date of birth or date of death. They may have used a different first name that you aren't aware of. |
| <Eagle> | I know the IRS keeps close tabs on what employers pay because my number was used and the IRS audited me the year I didn't report that income from that job-wasn't me an just cause me to get papers really organized |
| <NGSJohn> | Pam, have you ever seen any numbers on what percent of the population filed in the late 30s? |
| <PamPorter> | If they have an unusual surname, you can leave almost everything else blank. Of course if you're looking for John Smith, it's best to narrow the search more. |
| <scm> | I know that my grandfather did not and he died in the early 50s |
| <Nadine_H> | What about nicknames or common names, such as Jack for John, Polly for Mary, etc? |
| <PamPorter> | John, I'm very bad at remembering numbers. The SS Admin website probably does have stats on the numbers who filed for benefits in the late 30s. |
| <Sagehost> | Could people who signed up one year and retired the next get benefits and was it worth it |
| <PamPorter> | Nadine, nicknames can cause confusion. Again, that's a case where you might want to use the surname, the birth date, death date, guess at the state where the number was issued, and get a list of everyone by that last name matching those dates in that state. |
| <PamPorter> | According to the SS Admin website and the history of SS, some people did sign up for benefits as soon as they were available. I doubt they were able to live high on the hog from this, though. The original purpose of SS was more that of an old-age benefit to those who needed the most help. |
| <PamPorter> | Over the years, more and more benefits were added until it has become all-inclusive. |
| <PamPorter> | Has anyone had a great find by ordering an SS-5 card? |
| <Nadine_H> | When a husband and wife shared one SS #, how do you distinguish between them when requesting info from the SSA? |
| <AudieSue> | No, I didn't but it was sure great to see my father's signature again! |
| <Nadine_H> | No, but I think I'll give a try real soon! |
| <PamPorter> | I'm not positive about the husband/wife thing, but I believe that was a case of the widow receiving benefits based on her deceased husband's payments. They would distinguish based on the two different names, I assume. |
| <Nadine_H> | It would seem to be helpful to get info on both of them. If so, do you need to pay two fees? |
| <PamPorter> | Yes, that original signature is a wonderful thing to see. My mother also was able to tell me that her mother had filled out her father's application, and then he had signed it. So I got my grandmother's and grandfather's handwriting in one fell swoop! |
| <Sagehost> | Pam, if a baby was given a number and then given up for adoption and his name changed would social security change too |
| <csrssw> | I know my grandmother didn't have a birth certificate but she did receive benefits in her name. I remember when she applied for her card. She died in 1975 in Ohio. What would I have to have to request a copy of her application? Would the funeral home have some of this information? |
| <PamPorter> | Nadine, I believe it has been quite some time since the same number was used for spouses. Those folks probably are pre-1963 and may not be in SSDI anyway. |
| <PamPorter> | You can order an SS-5 without having a Social Security number, but it costs $29 instead of $27. You'd need to provide info about their names, dates of birth, etc. And you have to provide proof that the person is deceased. |
| <PamPorter> | You can order an SS-5 for someone who does not appear in the SSDI. The SSDI is just an easy way to obtain a SS number and other info on the person to help when ordering the SS-5. |
| <Nadine_H> | My grandmother died in 1973, her husband in 1961. I believe she used her husband's # when she started getting benefits |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | i can only find my grandpas ss# i have had no luck at all with any other family members any idea's ? |
| <NGSJohn> | anyone have questions about the NGS courses? |
| <Nadine_H> | the person for whom you are requesting the SS-5 must be decease, though, right? |
| <csrssw> | I'm new at genealogy and would love to attend one. Any change of one coming to Texas? |
| <genealogyADM> | THe NGS courses are available online csrssw |
| <PamPorter> | Yes, Nadine, the person for whom you request an SS-5 must be deceased, or they must order it themselves. |
| <Nadine_H> | Thanx |
| <NGSJohn> | yes, we have an intro to genealogy and a new online census course |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | were do you find the claases online adm ? |
| <Sagehost> | Pam, if a child has a ssn and is then given up for adoption and a new name is given, what then |
| <NGSJohn> | Go to NGS Online Classes, under learning center look at online courses |
| <csrssw> | Thank You So Much!!! |
| <PamPorter> | Well, Sage, that's a fine question, and I don't know the answer to that. In the case of adoption, many states actually change the birth certificate and seal the old one, but I don't know what SSA does. |
| <PamPorter> | The child issue is a relatively new phenom, with many states now cooperating with SSA to issue SS numbers when a birth is registered. |
| <Jerry> | Isn't rather new that children are given an SSN? It used to be that people received an SSN only when they began to work. |
| <Nadine_H> | When did the requirement for all newborns to get SS# begin? |
| <PamPorter> | I think issuing SSNs to children has come about because of IRS regulations for the most part. |
| <Sagehost> | this child born in 1972 |
| <genealogyADM> | Yes - you can't claim children as a deduction on federal income tax without a SS# !!! |
| <PamPorter> | And Kimberly would know! |
| <MichelleNJ> | Ditto... filled the form out in the hospital |
| <genealogyADM> | But 30 years ago that wasn't the case |
| <Nadine_H> | my son born in 1977 did not get an SS # at birth |
| <PamPorter> | No, most of us got our SS card when we applied for our first job at Dairy Queen. |
| <Sagehost> | I filled out form in hospital in 1974 |
| <genealogyADM> | My brother, sister and I all received ours later in childhood so that we could apply for passports |
| <April> | My 2 were born in 71 and 73 and both got numbers then |
| <Sagehost> | LOL sounds like me at a gas station in 1964 Pam |
| <sandy_keller> | Every child born now the parent has to fill out for one don't they? |
| <PamPorter> | And many of our parents or grandparents only got SS numbers when they became eligible for Medicare. |
| <Nadine_H> | my other sons born 82 and 86 got SS # when applying for passports, too |
| <Sagehost> | It may have been different in every state |
| <Sagehost> | I was in Nebraska for my kids in 74,79,&82 |
| <Nadine_H> | 1977 in TX and other 2 in CA |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | i haven't been able to find my family's ss info except for my grandpa's |
| <PamPorter> | Many states do offer the ability to get a SS number when registering a birth now. But 50 states may have 50 different procedures, and SS numbers are a Federal deal, not state. |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | how do i find the rest of them ? |
| <LegacyDave> | Did everyone get an SS# in 1936, even if they were retired at the time? |
| <Linda1491> | Did farmers get ss numbers in the early 1900's |
| <sandy_keller> | Grandchildren in Arkansas in 2000 and one in2001 did |
| <lashawn> | i have a question |
| <PamPorter> | Auntiedawner, it's possible the others didn't have a SS number. Try looking for home documents, or contact the funeral home that handled their burials. |
| <Nadine_H> | I doubt if the adopted child in 1972 was issued an SS # before the adoption took place, but could have, I guess |
| <sandy_keller> | grandchildren born in 1992 in Memphis tn and 1994 in Mississippi did too |
| <sandy_keller> | I just thought it was in every state |
| <lashawn> | how do i find out if my ggrandfather had receive an ssn |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | my grandma's isn't even online and she just died in jan |
| <PamPorter> | LegacyDave, no not everyone got a SSN in 1936. It was most important to register working people who would have to pay SS taxes, and those who would shortly become eligible for benefits. |
| <sandy_keller> | To be online doesn't someone have to put in for the death benefits? |
| <PamPorter> | To be included in the Social Security Death Index, someone had to have a Social Security number, and their death had to be reported to the SS Admin. |
| <sandy_keller> | oh I c |
| <Nadine_H> | lashawn, when was your ggf born? |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | oh ok maybe my grandpa didnt reg my grandma |
| <Eagle> | I think the index only lists those who had benifets paid? |
| <lashawn> | 1891 or 1982 |
| <lashawn> | oops 1892 |
| <PamPorter> | If a funeral home reported a death to the SS Admin as a courtesy to the family, or if anyone, for any reason, reported the death, they may be in the SSDI, but never have received benefits. |
| <LegacyDave> | My gr-grandmother was self-employed through the mid-1950's, but her death cert. says she had no SS#. Could that be possible, or was she just working off the biiks? |
| <lashawn> | but he died in 1964 |
| <Eagle> | so all deceased should be in index? |
| <LegacyDave> | Books. |
| <Nadine_H> | lashawn, have you looked for him in the SSDI? He was old enough to be receiving benefits in 1964. |
| <csrssw> | lashawn, if your grandfather was a member of a trades union, ex. bricklayers, teamsters, etc. his ssn may be on his application there. |
| <lashawn> | he is not listed |
| <PamPorter> | There are many reasons a person did not have a SS number, even if they worked. Perhaps your great-grandmother worked at an occupation that was not part of the SS plan at the time. |
| <Eagle> | I know no is the answer |
| <Nadine_H> | lashawn, how was your ggf employed? |
| <PamPorter> | lashawn, your grandfather may have had an occupation that was not covered by SS, or he may not have paid in SS taxes, and therefore was not eligible. |
| <Linda1491> | Pam-Were farmers eligible for benefits in the 30's and 40's |
| <sandy_keller> | Eagle wouldn't she have to have a ss card and pay in to ss? |
| <Jerry> | According to the SS Admin ""Getting a Social Security number for adopted children is the same as getting one for a biological child. While you can get the number before the adoption is completed, you may want to wait. Then you can apply for the number with your names as parents and your child's new name."" |
| <PamPorter> | Also, there ARE errors in the database. Some folks who SHOULD be there just aren't. |
| <PamPorter> | Linda1491, I believe someone reported earlier that farmers became eligible in 1955? |
| <LegacyDave> | Do you know the rationale behind the SS Admin quadrupling their fee for an SS-5 to $28? |
| <PamPorter> | Professional occupations were not originally covered by SS either, and railroad workers got their benefits through the Railroad Retirement Board. |
| <Nadine_H> | greed!! |
| <Sagehost> | child had a number when born at hospital and then was given up at 2 years would have been my greatnephew |
| <sandy_keller> | Pam I am interested in the answer to Eagle's question. If someone is self-employed would they be listed? |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | how would i find out if my gggp has a ss # he was born in prov of poven germany in 1840 and came to america would he have one? |
| <Jerry> | Self-employed farmers became eligible for Social Security in 1955. |
| <Nadine_H> | Auntiedawner, not likely, he would have been to old to have been employed in 1936. |
| <Sagehost> | Auntie not likely unless alive after 1938 |
| <PamPorter> | It was shocking to go from paying $7 to $27 for an SS-5. However, the fee had been the same for many years, and more and more genealogists are requesting info from SS Admin. I believe them when they say they had to raise the fees to pay for the service. I'd love to get it all free or cheap, but I do realize that the SS Admin's main purpose is to serve the elderly and disabled. |
| <Nadine_H> | He would have been 96 in 1936, when this all began. |
| <PamPorter> | Auntiedawner, your gggp would've been 96 when they started signing folks up for numbers, so he probably didn't get one. |
| <Sagehost> | Pam SSA actually hired extra researchers just to handle the requests from genealogists |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | ok |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | im new to this all |
| <PamPorter> | That's fine, Auntiedawner - we all have to learn, and the best way to do that is to ask questions and read! |
| <Sagehost> | My hubby works for Fed. Gov. |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | what about someone born on a ship in american waters july 11th 1905 |
| <Nadine_H> | pity |
| <sandy_keller> | Me too auntiedawner but we have to start somewhere |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | thank you pam its nice not to be made to feel silly :0) |
| <Nadine_H> | then it would depend on occupation in 1936 |
| <csrssw> | Me three. I sure have learned a lot tonight. This is great! |
| <PamPorter> | The real thing to remember is that anyone who was working in occupations that were covered in 1936 when the SS Act was passed may have received a SS number at some time in their lives. |
| <Nadine_H> | i'm not so new, but still learned quite a bit |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | noone know anything other than selling boose to the mob no im not kidding |
| <PamPorter> | Well, Auntie, I come from a long line of moonshiners in the hills, so most of my folks weren't covered by SS. |
| <Nadine_H> | better look for revenuer records, then |
| <Sagehost> | Auntiedawner, :) we all have at least one of those |
| <sandy_keller> | I had alot that drank it?lol |
| <PamPorter> | Plenty of revenuer records, compliments of Uncle Sam and federal marshals. |
| <PamPorter> | But that's another lecture. |
| <BHocutt> | Auntie, Try a Freedom of Information request to the BATF |
| <Nadine_H> | is there such a thing? |
| <sandy_keller> | BHocutt what is that? |
| <PamPorter> | BHocutt, what a great idea! The FBI releases files; why not ATF? |
| <Nadine_H> | Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and firearms |
| <sandy_keller> | thank you |
| <BHocutt> | If the Batf or FBI have records on your relatives they have to release them to you (Copies) |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | 1 ? how do i find this information |
| <BHocutt> | when you file a Freedom of INfo request |
| <Nadine_H> | true? |
| <sandy_keller> | where and how? |
| <BHocutt> | Auntie, go to their website, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | thank you |
| <PamPorter> | I have received Federal arrest records and criminal case files from the National Archives for ""events"" in the past. |
| <Sharon> | BHocutt, Is that so with living relatives? |
| <BHocutt> | Sharon, Yup unless they are currently being investigated |
| <sandy_keller> | thanks that is interesting have to check it out |
| <Nadine_H> | wow! |
| <sandy_keller> | Yeah double WOW |
| <Sagehost> | Unk, would that be true of state and local law enforcement records |
| <Nadine_H> | Pam, Kimberly, John, Sage: thanx, this is a great idea!! |
| <BHocutt> | Sage, Not sure I am unfamiliar with State Laws |
| <Sagehost> | Too bad FBI does not have a database for state and local files |
| <Nadine_H> | naw, the feds don't want to mess with the locals |
| <BHocutt> | Sage, they do |
| <PamPorter> | You folks are all awesome. What a great time this has been. I can't believe two hours have already sneaked by. |
| <MichelleNJ> | NGSJohn, do you know when the info will be available for the regional conference in MD? |
| <NGSJohn> | its amazing how quickly it goes |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | Will you be doing other chats soon Pam ? |
| <Sagehost> | Time goes by in a hurry when you are having fun! LOL |
| <NGSJohn> | Yes, the conference is on October 18 and 19 at the Hilton Hotel in Columbia |
| <PamPorter> | I believe John and NGS have regular chats scheduled here, Auntiedawner. |
| <Sagehost> | Yes, Pam you can come back any Wed. |
| <Sagehost> | Hello burgs |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | thank you so much |
| <Nadine_H> | any Wed, same time? |
| <PamPorter> | Well, I had FUN! I'll be glad to come back. Anyone interested in Missouri research? |
| <Barry> | Sage, I missed the first hour plus. Will this chat be on the site somewhere to read or download? |
| <Sagehost> | Columbia Missouri? |
| <NGSJohn> | Pam on behalf of NGS and our 17,000 members, THANKS! |
| <Sharon> | Unk, Sister in law trying to get information on a relative who died in jail--he was put there before they hospitalized the insane--they have refused to give it to her---can she get it by using Freedom of Inf Act? |
| <Jerry> | This was really informative. Thanks! |
| <Sagehost> | yes, Kim will post transcript at about.com genealogy site |
| <BHocutt> | Sharon, Federal or State Jail? |
| <genealogyADM> | Thank you so much for this wonderful chat Pam! |
| <Sharon> | Unk, County |
| <MichelleNJ> | Pam, thank you for a very informative chat! |
| <PamPorter> | Thanks, Kimberly, for moderating and helping out, especially with a new angel in your house demanding your attention. |
| <genealogyADM> | I'd like to thank all of you for coming tonight and to extend a big thanks to Pam for all of the wonderful information |
| <Sagehost> | Thanks ever so much Pam |
| <BHocutt> | Sharon, Freedom of Info, probably won't work then, but its worth a try |
| <NGSJohn> | Pam you really have us a lot of very useful information |
| <Sharon> | Unk, thanks |
| <J_Mark> | FOIA is only a federal law. |
| <sandy_keller> | Thanks for the information |
| <MichelleNJ> | John, thanks!! |
| <genealogyADM> | And thanks to John and the National Genealogical Society Learning Center for sponsoring the chat |
| <AUNTIEDAWNER> | john how do i find the chats info and rooms again ? |
| <genealogyADM> | You're very welcome Pam - my pleasure |
| <NGSJohn> | These chats are fun. Our next one will come live from the NGS Conference in Milwaukee |
| <Nadine_H> | when? |
| <Sagehost> | NGSJOHN when do you have more chats scheduled and what will topics be |
| <NGSJohn> | go to the NGS web page. |
| <csrssw> | Pam, this was wonderful. Thanks for taking the time to do it. Thanks to you too Kimberly, especially since you are busy with a new one as well as other children. (Been there - done that. Enjoyed every minuste of it too. I hope you do also.) |
| <NGSJohn> | we always list the virtual lectures |
| <genealogyADM> | Cyndi Howells will be the guest speaker at the NGS chat |
| <genealogyADM> | live from the NGS conference in Milwaukee |
| <Sagehost> | GREAT on Cyndi chat |
| <NGSJohn> | the time will be a little different however, Friday May 17 1:45 to 3:45 central time |
