Vatican Orders Catholic Parish Registers Off-Limits to LDS Church
The Vatican directive says the purpose of the policy is to:
"ensure that such a detrimental practice is not permitted in [each bishop's] territory, due to the confidentiality of the faithful and so as not to cooperate with the erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
One of the core tenets of Mormon faith is that the dead can be baptized into the Church to offer them the opportunity to accept the faith in an afterlife and achieve salvation. Many Jews and Christians have been upset by this practice, and see it as usurping the memory of their departed relatives. Some of this has been due to such names appearing in the International Genealogical Index (IGI) which does include the records of temple work submitted by member of the LDS Church, but also includes names extracted from civil records as part of a Records Extraction Project. In other words, just because a name is in the IGI, doesn't mean the individual was baptized into the Latter-day Saints faith after their death, although stories such as Will Pope Benedict become a Mormon after he dies? seem to appear in the news media fairly regularly. Ironically, the Vatican Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith declared in June 2001 that baptism conferred by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not valid. The response was signed by the prefect, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger — now Pope Benedict XVI.
I'm often asked if I'm a Mormon when people first learn of my interest in genealogy, but in actuality I'm a Catholic - and on just about every branch of my family tree. I just spent some time this week researching some of my French Catholic ancestors in 17th century parish registers - online, of course! I can't even begin to imagine how long this research would have otherwise taken trying to compose letters in French to request copies of baptism and marriage records for which I did not have an exact date. Without those Catholic parish registers there would have been few, if any, surviving records available to help me piece together my family tree.
The LDS Church has microfilmed millions of pages of parish registers from all over the world -- many of them from Catholic parishes. In doing so, they preserve these valuable records for future generations, and make them available to people all over the world - people of all faiths and beliefs. Restricting access to these records by the Latter-day Saints hurts everyone, and possibly even denies the Catholic church part of its own heritage as unfilmed records are lost to decay, flood or fire. As David M. Bresnahan so eloquently stated in his article Genealogists Need Catholic Records to Find Ancestors - Families Have Right to Family History, "Hopefully Mormons, Catholics, and genealogists of all faiths can unite in prayer that those who are responsible for this decision will reconsider, particularly as the consequences of this policy become manifest."
Comments
The Catholic Church has gotten much of “it” wrong. This should be no surprise.
Ironically, the Vatican Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith declared in June 2001 that baptism conferred by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not valid.
This is a most awesome move by the Leader of the Christian world. It’s nice to see that someone is willing to stand up to the errors of the LDS, FLDS and other false religions.
One more reason to firm up my decision to stay the *%#^ away from that church.
If a Mormon baptism is not valid what harm could it possibly do?
The Catholic diocese where I live doesn’t open their records to the public. You have to write to the diocese with your request, pay for the research, and wait for someone to have time to respond to your request. I can understand their being protective of records from the past 100 years since they may contain information on living people, but it sure would be nice if they would make the older records available. The Mormons do this for free at no cost to the parish or diocese, so why not take advantage of this wonderful opportunity instead of discouraging it? I only hope they have them all microfilmed in case, God forbid, something bad happens.
As a practicing Catholic and a genealogist who has used the facilities of local family history centers for decades I would like to make a comment. While I disagree with this action by my church, because I take the view that it can do no harm if the LDS baptize my ancestors by proxy, I think it should be pointed out that as in the situation with Holocaust victims being baptized and the denunciations by Jewish organizations of same, that the issue is more complicated that it appears on the surface.
If all LDS members were doing was baptizing their own ancestors who happen to be yours or mine as well, then I don’t think there would be a problem with other churches. Rather the problem is the very expansive view the LDS church takes of family and where a member can go up their tree to our common 10th gg-father and then work down the tree from another sibling to reach you or me if we are deceased and thus via those sealing lines be baptizing n-th cousins (if my understanding of the process is correct).
Again I personally do not have a problem with this, but this, along with baptizing Holocaust victims who probably cannot even be related to an LDS member via a sealing line (and thus seems the equivalent of baptizing names in a phone book), is what is causing the problems in my opinion, along with the fact that the LDS church has often not explicitly made it clear the expansive notion of family it takes.
Also I would like to point out that the statements by Catholic clergy on this are more conciliatory than one might think, and state that a dialogue must honestly deal with differences. This actually represents an opportunity for the future because if an agreement can be reached on this matter by the two churches at top levels, then instead of the previous situation where it was left up to individual Catholic bishops who did not have clear guidance from above, they then could have a seal of approval from the Vatican which would make them more likely to agree for the records of their own dioceses to be preserved by the FHL.
Mike
The LDS Church is providing a service for those who have passed on that no other church is willing to or can provide. The proxy baptisms performed hurt no one. If those who have passed on decide not to accept the ordinance on the other side, so beit…no harm, no foul. If they do choose to accept it, then that decision would bless them and their families in the eternities. If you don’t belive in this, then it is just foolish nonsense, ignore it. If you do believe in this and the afterlife, then acknowledge that the LDS Church is true and has the ordinances necessary for salvation in this life and in the life to come.
P.J. Toner’s discussion of the Poor Souls in Purgatory (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume IV. Published 1908. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York) reflectes a charitable view by Roman Chatholicism toward the practice of baptism for the dead. The reported Vatican directive of a few days ago states that the purpose of the Catholic Church policy is to “ensure that such a detrimental practice is not permitted in [each bishop’s] territory, due to the confidentiality of the faithful and so as not to cooperate with the erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” Toner (Catholic Encyclopedia, cited above) charitably has said of baptism for the dead (as part of his discussion of prayers for the dead):
“Passing over the well-known passage, 1 Corinthians 3:14 sq., on which an argument for purgatory may be based, attention may be called to another curious text in the same Epistle (15:29), where St. Paul argues thus in favour of the resurrection: ‘Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? Why are they then baptized form them?’ Even assuming that the practice here referred to was superstitious, and that St. Paul merely uses it as the basis of an argumentum ad hominem, the passage at least furnishes historical evidence of the prevalence at the time of belief in the efficacy of works for the dead; and the Apostle’s reserve in not reprobating this particular practice is more readily intelligible if we suppose him to have recognized the truth of the principle of which it was merely an abuse. But it is probable that the practice in question was something in itself legitimate, and to which the Apostle gives his tacit approbation.”
I was born a Catholic and became a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at age 10. I have been both active in the Church and most respectful of my Catholic relatives as they have been of me, even knowing that one of my major purposes in performing family history research is that of identifying deceased ancestors, sharing family history research with relatives, and supplying names of long-deceased ancestors for proxy baptism. I have been an avid family historian, delving into the civil and church records that pertain to our ancestors, sharing my findings with very grateful Catholic and non-Catholic relatives. I have been mindful to respect the sensitivities of living relatives, as the LDS Church has encouraged me — and as it constantly encourages all members of the Church — to do. I, and others I’ve never met, have provided for the performance of proxy baptisms for distant ancestors common to us all and have left the near-in-time deceased relatives alone. I no more take offense at the Roman Catholic practice of prayers for the dead than I feel they should take any offense at the practice of baptisms for the dead. See generally http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm (from which the above quotation was taken).
The real issue is the question of the validity and efficacy of the infant baptisms performed for the ancestors while they were still alive. The Roman Catholics believe the infant baptisms to have been wholly valid; the Latter-day Saints believe baptism is appropriate only after cognizant acceptance of the Gospel (hence the practice of proxy baptisms). This comment does not seek to resolve such a fundamental issue that differentiates the two Churchs’ doctrines; there is so much in common between them (hence the comparable practices — sacraments, as it were — of prayers for the dead and baptisms for the dead).
In response to David M. Bresnahan’s call, I join my Catholic brothers and sisters in prayer for the living, those who will see the tremendous value imparted by the invaluable records of the Catholic Church, records that have imparted information about my origins, that have enlighted the lives of all my relatives, Catholic and non-Catholic alike.
I forwarded this to a family member to get his response. Here is is in all its glory. I couldn’t agree more.
“This is unfortunate for everyone who is working in genealogy, but, in practical terms, I don’t see how the Catholic Church can implement this. The best they can do is slow the flow of information down but the information will certainly be obtained - the very nature of a genealogist is persistence.
As to worrying about having your (anyone’s) genealogy used for “mormon baptism”… who cares? It’s a meaningless ceremony. If the mormons want to, let em, It has nothing to do with us.”
i think its outrageous that the vatican thinks that mormon baptisms are’nt valid. in the bible jesus himself was baptized by FULL emersion, and so are the mormons. from what i know, the catholic religion sprinkles their members (mostly babys who dont even know what sin is) as a baptizmal ordinance. so it seems to me that the catholics are performing baptizms for the dead too, from the sprinklers at their cemetaries.
It is not the Catholic Church’s job to police what practices the Mormons should or should not adopt. Baptism for the dead does absolutely no harm to Catholics, who do not recognize the validity of the ordinance. And yet it has tremendous meaning for Mormons as a way of honoring their ancestors. Seeing as how baptism for the dead has absolutely no detrimental effect on Catholics, it’s hard not to see this latest policy chance as being mean-spirited. Click here to learn more about baptism for the dead.
As a member of the LDS Church, I am against the baptism of non-family members and in fact its actually against policy to submit members for baptism in temples that are not your family. Unfortunately, there are lots of members who’s families are long done and feel a bit too ambitious. I for one am not an active card-carrying temple goer. My interest in Genealogy predates any conversion. For me, its a mystery about a handful of travelers from Eastern Europe and a little known ethnic group, the Rusyn.
I am saddened by this action, but really, if I request information on my French Ancestors (who were Heugonat sp?) in Catholic Churches, how are they going to know I’m LDS? This is silly and it hurts the very idea of preserving the past. Not just preventing a misunderstood practice that shouldn’t matter if you don’t believe in my faith. If I want to waste my time inviting ancestors to join me, then its my wasted time. If Catholicism is the One True Church then my priesthood has no power and all those Catholics are very safe.
I guess this is just where we all must have faith that Jesus will sort out the nonsense when he returns.
I am of 2 minds about this. I have Jewish friends who have been very upset about finding their ancestors names on an LDS file as being Baptized. This is disrespect of the person who was baptized into a different religion posthumously. Simply being listed in IGI, or something similar, isn’t the issue. I think that the LDS Church themselves need to police/crack down on its members who are offering names for baptism who are not related to them. This is wrong on so many levels. The primary reason it is wrong is that it is dishonest. They are not their relatives.
My other thoughts on this is that the Pope is attempting to stick his finger in a hole in the dike. It’s not going to happen. Too many people are doing research to stop the records being used. That just doesn’t make sense.
I left the catholic church long time ago…..this has nothing to do with LDS…this is just another money making scheme by the Catholic Church….Isnt there reputation bad enough…..that they are going to force us to pay for information on our dead ancestors….I appeal to all genealogists that have catholic information to put in on the web to avoid making them richer than what they are…
For the Catholics who are reading this blog, I am going to quote something from a man on another blog. I would like your opinion on his thoughts. “It is sad that the Pope and the Vatican take this position. My family and I are LDS and we embrace working together with other faiths. Here in Colorado, the Catholic and LDS Churches join with many others in common charitable undertakings… Unfortunately, I lay this edict at the door of Pope Benedict. I served an LDS mission in the Germany Munich Mission from 1977-1979. The Pope, who at that time was Cardinal Josef Ratzinger of the Archdiocese of Munich, personally undertook to shut out LDS missionaries from the city of Freising, home of the Archdiocese (he made sure no one would rent to them, etc.), and from the heavily Catholic city of Passau. Just look at his history of antagonizing Lutherans in Germany, provoking Muslims since becoming Pope, etc. This too will pass, but in the meantime he is needlessly picking fights with other faiths. However, we should turn the other cheek and keep the dialogue with Catholics open.”
In line with my previous comment as a Catholic I just want to say that all the bashing of the Catholic Church or the Pope serves no useful purpose. The question is how can the LDS church and the genealogical community, including Catholics, try to work things out so that the Catholic Church and individual bishops are willing to allow the FHL to archive Catholic parish records.
Despite the fact that the LDS Church now apparently forbids the practice of baptizing those who are not the relatives of a member, I have read in the past that such has continued in some cases and that the Church cannot find out who performed/submitted same. Is that correct? That is, cannot each and every modern day temple ordinance be tied to who performed/submitted it?
If the LDS Church can not only state that they have a policy not to perform mass ordinances based on extractions, but also that they have the means to stop same by identification and punishment of “renegade” church members, then I think that would go a long way to help reach an agreement in the future with the Catholic Church and other denominations/religions as well.
But the more personal attacks that are made on the Pope or the Catholic Church in general on this, then the less willing the CC is likely to be to discuss this with the LDS leadership and hopefully reach an agreement. So people can continue to bash and rant or they can work for a solution. But they cannot do both.
Mike
I think it is a great shame that the catholic church is trying to prevent people trying research their family history in an affordable way. I am a member of the LDS church and have only ever submitted names to the temple of my direct ancestors. We are asked to obtain next of kin permission to submit names of anyone else. I do family history research, not just for temple ordinances to be doen, but I enjoy finding out all about my ancestors. I think it is wonderful that the LDS church provide so much information for genealogists free of charge. If the catholic church says that LDS baptisms are not valid then what are they afaid of?
“One of the core tenets of Mormon faith is that the dead can be baptized into the Church to offer them the opportunity to accept the faith in an afterlife and achieve salvation.”
Now let’s look at this again. It offers our ancestors “the opportunity”. Our ancestors, being dead and of many faiths or denominations, now know what we do not about life on the other side. When a gentleman at the library asked if I knew what my submission would involve I replied, “Yes, my ancestors will make the right decision. Do what you want to.” Yours will make the right choice too,have some faith, people!
As for the Pope, those old bachelors don’t have control of much any more, so they take it where they can or think they can. It makes a good smoke screen for the real issues and good genes everywhere will find a way around this.
Yes, it is sad, but no reason to panic. My advice would be to hang in there, pray and have faith in God. This is His work, and to quote President Gordon B Hinckley: ‘It will all work out.’
In line with my previous comment as a Catholic I just want to say that all the bashing of the Catholic Church or the Pope serves no useful purpose. The question is how can the LDS church and the genealogical community, including Catholics, try to work things out so that the Catholic Church and individual bishops are willing to allow the FHL to archive Catholic parish records.
Very well said, Mike! Religion is supposed to be about peace and understanding, and saying “I’m right, and you’re wrong” doesn’t resolve anything. What’s important here is how the Catholic Church chooses to preserve and share its records. It has, in general, been left up to the individual bishops and parish priests in the past. I actually think that a more blanket policy could be helpful; access to parish records can be really difficult in places as it stands now. But I also hope that the two churches find a way to come together so that the policy isn’t just a blanket “no.”
So does the Pope believe that a Mormon baptism will affect the dead? Is he suggesting that it will really make a difference to the dead? If Mormon baptism is meaningless, what does it matter how many dead they get baptized for? Genealogy has a worldwide interest. I am not Catholic, but I want to do genealogy and find out who my ancestors were and what they did, and some of them were Catholic. The Mormon Church goes to a great expense in time, effort and money to provide much of this information free to all, no matter their religion. If they feel better baptizing their dead, who cares? Unless this position means that the Pope is admitting that the Mormon baptism really does make a difference in the afterlife. Everyone who is now living benefits from all of their work and free access to it. The Mormons aren’t being selfish with what they gather, so let’s all share and get along.
This is an interesting move by the church. Does it mean that the CC believes in the processes/traditions of the LDS church? I understand withholding records for the most recent 100 years even 125 years but to comment on the practices of another faith and sounding like they believe in the practice of baptism after death….oh my! Privacy I can certainly understand for 125 years but to reason beyond that is just dumb. This is why I left the church because of man made ideas that have nothing to do with the spiritual growth ones soul.
I am unhappy about this decision by the church to try and stop people from trying to connect to their past. Especially considering that during some of those years people were baptized Catholic, not by choice, but to avoid religious persecution. Who cares what someone says over a list of names…it’s not the physical body. I thought people were judged by how they lived their lives. Most of these ancestors have been gone 50 - 100+ yrs…how would a so called “baptism” at this point change what has become of their soul?
If the Catholic Church does not want the LDS to copy these records, why doesn’t the church make these copies available to the families? That move could possibly bring more people back into the church and maybe help people forget the church scandal that’s going on.
In the hopes that they hear any of these opinions…finding information on my ancestors has helped with the physical health of myself & my children.
I really hope the church reconsiders.
I, too, found this to be pretty ridiculous, and I question the motives of the Pope in this action. I wrote a blog posting about it, even.
In the long run, though, those records exist in the first place thanks to the efforts of devoted Catholic church leaders in the past. The organization has given its leadership in a steady line down to the current day Pope. It’s his church, and if he wishes to keep information out of the hands of other people, it’s his prerogative.
Mormons, I’m sure, will take solace in knowing that “no unhallowed hand” can really stop their work from progressing. As long as we’re faithful, God will see to it that we get the information we need.
Sure, Mormons have a right to practice what they wish, but is’nt going a bit far for them to demand that another Church assist them in those practices, especially when those practices directly challenge the beliefs of the Catholic Church (Baptism)?
You have it wrong. The Mormons don’t demand something, they offer something. They offer to preserve disintegrating records not only for every living persons use, but for generations to come. I have used their facilities, and it is wonderful. You don’t have to be a Mormon. They don’t keep the records they copy secret, but that is exactly what the Pope is trying to do. Who cares whether Mormons want to do baptisms or not, it you don’t believe the Mormon Church is true, what possible difference could it make to anyone? But everyone else benefits from the Mormons efforts in this area. It is really a great blessing to us all. And to the Catholic Church in particular. These records are really old and will be gone in not many years. Is the Catholic Church willing to step up to the plate and pay for copying themselves or are they just going to let these priceless records disappear? We should all be thanking the Mormons for doing this instead of getting after them.
The Catholic Church owns its records and has the right to decide whether or not it will share them with LDS or any other denomination or organization, and that’s the bottom line. If you want to discuss theology with each other and learn from each other, you ought to create a website or blog or forum to exchange ideas.
The Catholic church has far weightier matters to tend to rather than limit access to geneology information that serves the entire human family.
When did the Catholic Church provide such a service to the world?
Appears to me that we could all link-arms, behave with civility and work towards the common good.
I for one am very grateful for the Catholic church for preserving these records. I am also grateful for my early ancestors in the LDS church who researched and gathered those records. I am benefitting from those records today.
I have faith that this will all work out. The Lord can use all opposition for His good.
And as for those of other faiths who have found their ancestors on the IGI and are angry. How do they know that it was not one of their relatives who has joined the church who submitted the work??
Even within the last 100 years a person can have literally hundreds of descendents. Can they really be sure that not one of those descendents has not joined the church and submitted those names as their direct ancestors, because they are?
I once had person yell at me because her great grandfather was listed on the IGI for being baptized. I asked her how she was so sure that it wasn’t one of her relatives who had descended from this ancestor who had submitted the name. Sure enough she said she did have relatives on that had joined the church.
Baptism by proxy is about as good as trying to pray someone else into heaven,,,,Hey if they’re not interested and not willing to follow the laws of God, it won’t do much good…..
As a practicing Catholic and avid genealogy researcher, I am of two minds about this matter. I have direct ancestors who were neither Catholic nor Mormon, in fact one was hailed in her obituary as “a faithful and consistant Methodist”. I was upset to read on a distant relative’s site that this woman was “sealed in the Temple”. Since I am her only direct descendant, I know no one gave permission for this, nor had the right to do so. She chose her religion while on this earth, had she wanted to belong to the LDS, she would have done so. While I think that baptism after death is invalid, I do resent some distant cousin taking the liberty of forcing their religious beliefs into my family records.
As an earlier poster said, the baptismal records of the Catholic Church belong to the Catholic Church. I have never been refused information from any of them, and no other honest researcher would be either. What they are attempting to do is prevent the wholesale manipulation of records in order to satisfy the tenets of another eligion.
I must disagreee with those who said that the baptismal records recorded in the Catholic Church belong to the POPE and/or the CATHOLIC CHURCH. Those records BELONG to the person baptised and his/her family as any records of any religious organization. That is like saying that the b/m/d records of a person belong to a certain STATE, COUNTRY, DISTRICT, ETC.
My grandmother and her parents were of the LDS faith, but you won’t find my name or my father’s there as being baptised. IGI is NOT only for people of the LDS faith, but rather for people of the world. I think the Pope is wrong and is doing the people of the world an injustice. Sue
My thoughts are that no-one can claim to ‘own’ baptismal records. If a person is baptised in the name of god, or Jesus Christ, then surely the records belong to God or Jesus Christ, no matter which ‘religion’ looks after those records. Surely we are all God’s family, with stewardship over all, and as such we therefore we all have a right to access the records, and to safeguard them….
I agree with Elissa, (#4 on this list).
You cannot easily get records from the Catholic Church — LDS provides a very useful service to genealogists.
On the issue of baptism and salvation — read the Bible. No amount of baptizing or sprinkling is going to save one person. For Christians, there is only one way of salvation and that happens before you die.
In response to comment #29, proxy temple ordinances are for those who did not have the chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ while on the earth, and/or did not have the opportynity to receive the ordinances from someone with priesthood authority. There are billions of people who have lived upon the earth without ever even hearing the name of Christ. We of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe that a just God would not let his spirit sons and daughters to be cast out of his presense for eternity after not getting a fair chance to hear and accept the gospel. Proxy temple ordinances give those in the spirit prison who would have been faithful, had they heard the gospel during their mortal life, the opportunity to accept these ordinances for themselves. They are not valid unless accepted by the deceased individual.
This is a labor of love which members of the Church provide to their deceased family members. Over the years, the church has done a lot to minimize the offense that some people feel when they learn of the practise being done on their ancestors of another faith. We have been asked to make sure that we get permission from closer relatives if we desire to perform ordinances for our relatives who were born less than 90 years ago, and to stick to our own families.
All told, as many others have said, if the Catholic Church believes that baptism by a priest of our church is invalid, than what is the harm? This is all, simply put, another attempt to slow the fast-paced growth of the LDS Church by publicising practises that are unusual to members of other faiths.
It if finally time for those who understand the real meaning of the Sacrament of Baptism, to step forth and acknowledge the truth.
Baptism can take at least three forms, as I remember in my catechism lessons. All of those who understand this can only begin to wonder why all this uproar about changing the record.
Do these people, really think this is less than cosmetics. Is the Sacrament of Baptism to be taken so lightly so as to change the records after death.
How do we really know that these same death records reflect the real desire of these people to become Baptised.
I would also say that if the action of the Catholic Church had not caused a ripple in the money flow for the geneological industry, this might not have been worthy of the print.
Cardingl Ratzinger, is a more than adequate defender of the faith. I am sure that there is more to this story than is being related.
I have seen many comments on this all over the internet, and I saw several professional genealogist mention that all civil records in countries such as Europe, were all from the Church, as those countries were Catholic. All records were made in sets of two by the Church, one for them and one for the government. Apparently all those types of records have been copied, and were accessible from the government anyway. I found records years ago online for France from their government sites. I recently tried to get copies from the LDS Church History Library and I was denied as they said the item is marked “restricted access.” It is the diary of my ancestor of which I only have a partial copy. So not all records are available from LDS either. I am happy with anything I can find for my research, especially if I can find it online.
Oh, please. I am a Catholic and believe the Catholic Church is more concerned of the positive assistance the LDS is providing individuals who seek ancestral information. The Catholic Church should open the vast and very important documents not only to assist Catholics, butalso people of all faiths seeking ancestors members. Displaying the records would display good faith, and show the world the historical strength of the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, Catholics are leaving the Church seeking support which is not provided by the Catholic Church. As displayed by this action.
Wouldn’t it be a shame if a church was destroyed by an earthquake, fire or some other natural disaster and the church records were lost forever because no one was allowed to preserve them electronically! Why not embrass technology and share it with the world of genealogy
Genealogy has been my passion for years now and I spent just about every day working on something to add to my research.
That said, I think that the Catholic Church has every right to prohibit their records from being used for another religion’s REbaptising of their Catholic members. I should also add that I am an Episcopalian not a Catholic and respect everyone’s right to worship in their on way.
Unfortunately though I have had the experience of being told by my own family members who are LDS that because my family and I do not accept Joseph Smith as a savior all my family are doomed to Hell. These people are respected elders in their church. One is considered a High Priest. They told me that no one who does not believe in Joseph Smith and the LDS Church will be allowed into Heaven, no matter what good a life they lead. While I do not believe their doctrine for one minute, being told this by supposed loved ones was very upsetting to me. I am sure that the Catholics feel no differently.
No one has the right to posthumously change anyone’s ancestor’s faith! It is just WRONG! I would no sooner change a Methodist, Muslim, Jew or any other person’s faith to suit my “collection of souls”. There is no doubt in my mind that the Catholics are more than offended by this practice and they have the right to not aid the LDS church in their ridiculous quest to give everyone the chance to become Mormon, especially those who already have met their Maker! Shame on them and their cult!
For # 39 above and all other non-LDS. The Latter-day Saints do not believe or teach of Joseph Smith as their savior. There is one “Savior”, that is “Jesus Christ” The Son of God. You have surely misunderstood what your relatives have told you. What you are stating here is absolutely wrong and not the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah. Members of the LDS Church do baptisms for their ancestors only. They are the ones who provide the genealogical records. We certainly believe that all individuals will be judged on their own merit, not what religion they belong to. As a director of the local Family History Center in Mobile, Alabama, I will advise all that records in our archives which are “restricted” are so designated because the owner of the originals have requested that they not be distributed. This may be due to copyrights or just their own personal desire. Another thing that might be of interest to you is that when you visit the FHC we ask if you are LDS Members (This is for our own record.). We do not ask what church you belong to. More than 98% of the patrons to our library are not members of our church, but they use our facilities free of charge and are grateful for them. They do not judge harshly our doctrines, but rather they enjoy our hospitality and their relationships with us.
Mike,
I would just like to comment on your post from 5 May. The guidelines established by the LDS church dictate that while you are encouraged to conduct family history research on all known ancestors, you are not encouraged to perform vicarious ordinances for anyone not in your direct line. More specifically, this means direct ancestors, their children, and spouses of those children. In addition, if you are attempting to perform ordinances for any relatives who were born more recently than 110 years ago, you must receive permission from the closest living relative before doing so. Members who do not follow these guidelines are acting contrary to church policy.
I wonder if some of the antagonism stems from differences in our perceptions of baptism. Many view the act itself as an indelible stamp on your identity. Mormons only view it as such if the individual actually consents to the ordinance and agrees to follow the obligations entailed in the covenant attached to the ordinance. To put it more plainly, no one becomes a Mormon without choosing to do so, in this life or the next.
Many earlier posts are concerned that a loved one from the past has been baptized into another faith; “Mormonism”. They are upset that we would force others to join our religion. Please understand our perspective. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward conviction. No one (as stated in previous posts) is “forced” into “Morminism”. No person who has had a proxy baptism is ever considered a member of Christ’s (Our) Church. Free agency (choice) is always respected. No one can be forced into heaven.
We believe that we are members of Christ’s church. This church, we believe in has existed off and on from the beginning of time through Patriarchs like Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham. It existed to prepare the Jews for the coming of Christ. It existed though Jesus and His Apostles in the Early Church. We also believe it was restored in 19th century by the return of Christ, ancient apostles, and Prophets. We also believe we are preparing for the 2nd Coming of Christ.
If others are correct that Christ is not responsible for directing this work then proxy baptisms mean nothing and will be of no affect in this life or the one to come. It will not matter that someone from the past was a Jew or Christian or a Moslem or a Hindu. Where authority is of no affect, the action (Baptism) means nothing.
On the other hand, if the great Jehovah or Christ is leading this work as directed by the only true and living God; those that challenge the pursuit of this work do so at their Jeopardy.